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Y. ROTH

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Member Since: 3/2006  Last Seen: 11/01/2006

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Guild Unease

Thu Mar 2, 2006 4:22 PM EST
technology, newsvine, opinion, guilds
By Y. Roth
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Perhaps it's just a byproduct of the digital world's need to be constantly entertained, but it seems that the mantra of the Web 2.0 era has become "interaction, whenever possible, whether needed or not." Even the most erudite among us have been blinded by this phase, and have proceeded to build entire businesses on the premise that users want to be involved in everything that they see and do.

But this isn't a critique of Newsvine, or del.ici.ous or any of the cavalcade of other social Internet sites that have sprung up in recent months. Hell, it's not even a half-hearted swipe at Web 2.0. Mostly, it's just concern about the concept of news "guilds."

At first blush, the idea of a guild is reasonable: why not allow users of a site as involved as Newsvine to group themselves? Internet publishing has taken on the form of a self-sustaining, multi-headed organism, each head of which is comprised of a gaggle of the angry, opinionated masses which happen to share the same things to be angry about. Organization seems like the easiest way to filter out redundancy and promote higher-quality discourse and writing.

The real issue with a guild of users, as well as the whole "Positive Feedback" tag I see below my name now, isn't the intentions behind it, but what it tends to do to users. There are plenty of benefits to user organization, but the very idea of opening the door for users to discriminate against each other with some quantifiable criteria strikes me as moderately objectionable. Users become free to view feedback numbers and guild membership as reason to discredit or herald the blathering (or not) of a particular poster, which defeats the whole idea of having the ability for anyone to contribute.

Here's the quickest example to look at: Plastic.com. Plastic uses a system called Karma to give users commendation based on the relative usefulness of their comments and articles. The only reason the Karma system works is because when articles are contributed and put in the submission queue for peer review, the name of the poster is never given. There's no telling whether a post comes from a well-established member of the community or from someone entirely unknown. Articles, therefore, are judged exclusively on their merits, without any of the messy interpersonal association that can taint "good" news, ensuring that new users are given an equal chance to establish themselves.

But on a site like Newsvine, where a user's name is attached to everything, the concept of a Karma-like system, or even guilds, is a little more troublesome. A guild of users might become a voting bloc, ignoring community standards to serve egotistical needs. Alternatively, certain guilds might gain MMORPG-like notoriety and have their output heralded by default, and their members crowned as something of an artificial elite of the syndication world.

That kind of publishing elite is something that Newsvine, in its relative infancy, has the ability and obligation to avoid. The only question is whether those who care for the site will have the rationality to do so.

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  • Public Discussion (6)
Mykola Bilokonsky

I think there are two main points you are overlooking.

1) Guilds are nondestructive and noninvasive - they are something that, if you are not interested in participating in the guild system, you should never encounter. It's purely optional, as is degree of involvement - you can participate in as many guilds as you want to, or as few, and you can go so far as to be an active member, posting content in the name of the guild etc, or you can simply make use of the guild's filter when you want that particular vantage point in trying to sort through the ton of information on newsvine.

2) You are against the idea of having an elite, but quite frankly some people are better writers than others. The idea of simply voting for articles based on their merit is at the core of this - but with the sheer volume of content that will be coming our way, having a nondestructive noninvasive optional way of filtering, when you choose to do so, the cream from the rest, can be useful. I don't want to personally sort through every single science article posted on newsvine - I'd really like to simply trust the science guild to point out the good ones. You know what I mean?

I do appreciate the hesitant stance you take, tho. Please comment on any future posts on the subject, as a well-reasoned opposition is the best impetus for refined thinking.

  • 2 votes
Reply#1 - Thu Mar 2, 2006 6:40 PM EST
andria

Roth, My feelings exactly. I had been writing my own article on the need for editors and mini-vines when I came across the Guild idea. I was so excited and ready to scrap my article, until I read in the discussion of how it would be implemented. I just published my article, News Branches: A Proposal. It's my first.

Mykola, I really disagree about this comment:

they are something that, if you are not interested in participating in the guild system, you should never encounter.

As I outline in my article, something is desperately needed to connect readers with the deeper content on Newvine. Niche mini-vines were a great idea for doing this. Restricting them will totally undermine that.

About elitism, there is a difference between wanting exclusivity and being the only ones to get it. It is one thing to want only to associate with people who are in your class, but a quite another to say that other people should not be able to do the same. This is what you are doing by limiting the total number of groups.

  • 1 vote
Reply#2 - Thu Mar 2, 2006 8:23 PM EST
Y. Roth

...having a nondestructive noninvasive optional way of filtering, when you choose to do so, the cream from the rest, can be useful.

I completely agree with you that selecting high-quality content is important, and technically the content is still there at the end of the day. However...

I don't want to personally sort through every single science article posted on newsvine - I'd really like to simply trust the science guild to point out the good ones.

Isn't the very premise of a mass social networking site like Newsvine that you personally shouldn't need to do that? The whole idea of a large community, as in the case of Wikipedia, is that no one user needs to necessarily filter all the articles, and no one group of users need to be the authority over one class of articles. Having many people necessarily results in a community less likely to be negatively impacted by specific groups.

While your note that the filtering is nondestructive is technically true, delegating an article to obscurity because it doesn't come from a "science guild" is ignoring a lot of independent potential. You have to look at it from the perspective of a categorical imperative -- if everyone adopted the sort of "trust only the science guild for science articles" mentality you have, how far would the whole process really get?

  • 1 vote
Reply#3 - Thu Mar 2, 2006 9:38 PM EST
nihplod

Although I'm worried about that whole, "Positive Feedback" tag looming over most of us, I still like the idea of guilds, at the end of the day, it's something that you don't have to subscribe to, the idea is that they're non-invasive, so if you don't like listening to the comments of "elite" people, then don't! The site will still function as it does now.

    Reply#4 - Fri Mar 3, 2006 3:30 AM EST
    R.o.g.e.rDeleted
    andria

    Thanks for the encouragemetn Rog. Problem is there is not a lot of incentive for me to invest my time in a system IF I think it is fundamentally flawed. Not saying that it is flawed. I haven't heard how it will be structured yet.

      Reply#6 - Sat Mar 4, 2006 1:56 PM EST
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